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A friend pointed me to your blog. Your point ...Hi,<br /><br />A friend pointed me to your blog. Your point of view is encouraging to me as a keen hunter. Although your tone suggests that your disapprove of the desire to "demonstrate the right of the landowning rich to do what the hell they please", your conclusion actually supports that right. Perhaps we agree that it is desirable for as many people as possible -- ethnic and religious minorities, the sexually adventurous, the poor, the rich, foxhunters and anybody else -- to be able to do what the hell they please, as long as they don't hurt anyone else.<br /><br />I do take issue with the idea that brutal spending cuts are necessarily undesirable. Leaving aside the fact that there is much less disagreement between the main parties about how quickly to cut the deficit than their rhetoric would have you believe, if spending cuts make people better off in the long run, they are desirable; if further Keynesian spending will make people better off in the long run, then it is desirable. The way to decide which course to take is to think about economics, not to dismiss large spending cuts as "brutal". To do the latter is to make the same mistake that Labour MP's (but not you) have made about foxhunting.<br /><br />I see the hunting ban as the continuation of a tradition of soft-headed niceness that succeeded where liberalism failed in winning greater acceptance of and freedom for various minority groups, and in bringing benefits for the poor and so on. He's poor? Give him some money. People pick on him? Make it illegal. Be nice, and if other people won't be nice, make them. This tradition has been a good thing; but as most of the battles have been won, its negative aspects are becoming more of a problem. In the foxhunting example, an ancient freedom was overridden by the desire to be nice to a fox -- curtailing and ancient liberty for the sake of an animal. In the economics example, soft-headed refusal to cut public spending may store up worse problems for the future. <br /><br />So by all means keep those fuzzy emotions; but remember that some decisions are better made using the principles of liberalism or economics.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02900465024382591965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-16199633464497470022010-01-01T17:40:26.769+00:002010-01-01T17:40:26.769+00:00Fox hunting is for idle stupid fuckwits!
I hope ...Fox hunting is for idle stupid fuckwits! <br /><br />I hope it stays banned forever!Jesus of Montrealnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-58237433814987999402010-01-01T16:05:54.049+00:002010-01-01T16:05:54.049+00:00just heard they have done a u turn on factory farm...just heard they have done a u turn on factory farming.Derek Wallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05462511891409913195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-56509095764816226092009-12-31T19:11:41.672+00:002009-12-31T19:11:41.672+00:00I've shot the odd bunny in my time, but it has...I've shot the odd bunny in my time, but it has always bothered me how hunting, which supposedly stands in the noble(-ish) tradition of fending off dangerous wildlife, has been reduced to picking on little harmless ones.<br /><br />Hunting lions may once have been the preserve of kings, involving ancient ideas of mastery over nature, but foxes?<br />What next - hamsters?Tim Johnstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02470464053181422637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-53222977682645163242009-12-31T00:12:00.038+00:002009-12-31T00:12:00.038+00:00Thanks Ben. You did expand what I was getting at f...Thanks Ben. You did expand what I was getting at far more theoretically than i could manage. The biggest problem is an almost feudal bond still exists because of the codependency between upper and working classes in the countryside. Country resentment that they were being picked on and their way of life was being threatened by 'city people' is simplistic but not without a basis in reality.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-62899469191126780822009-12-30T12:57:22.449+00:002009-12-30T12:57:22.449+00:00Hi, Penny, Happy New Year! I know I'm a bit e...Hi, Penny, Happy New Year! I know I'm a bit early.Vanilla Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07946634138308342764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-53153297718681596942009-12-30T11:54:29.080+00:002009-12-30T11:54:29.080+00:00@ David Floyd. Hunt supporters put a great deal o...@ David Floyd. Hunt supporters put a great deal of energy into trying to thwart the hunting ban. The bill would not have taken up much parliamentary time if there had been no opposition.<br /><br />My point is that sometimes flawed legislation is a start. Maybe a few years down the line the government will also ban the shooting of foxes. They are clearly not intended for eating. The claim that killing them controls their numbers is clearly dubious. Hunt supporters have claimed that killing foxes keeps their numbers high (I think I already said that). This indicates that many hunt supporters know they are being dishonest when they claim killing foxes is a form of pest control.Vanilla Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07946634138308342764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-26512057543537057342009-12-29T21:06:13.938+00:002009-12-29T21:06:13.938+00:00@ Vanilla Rose. Hunt supporters wouldn't have ...@ Vanilla Rose. Hunt supporters wouldn't have wasted any parliamentary time at all on the bill. They would've just carried on hunting. That, on balance, was the position I supported. I don't support the Tories plans to waste more time reversing the ban. I'm just as bemused by the argument that hunting is a valuable tradition as I am by the argument that it's significantly more evil than shooting. <br /><br />I agree completely that laws that make things a lot better are worth having in the absence of laws that make things perfect. <br /><br />But the hunting ban is not remotely comparable with the legalisation of homosexuality in 1967. The legalisation of didn't go far enough but it was a real practical improvement in the situation for millions of people. <br /><br />Or the abolition of the death penalty in 1965, since which no one has been has been executed in the UK. <br /><br />For me, improvements in the rights of foxes are not high on my priority list but, even if they were, there's no clear evidence that the ban on foxhunting has led to any major improvement on the practical circumstances for foxes.David Floydhttp://www.chartist.org.uk/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-79358964013505856732009-12-29T18:36:40.143+00:002009-12-29T18:36:40.143+00:00PS apologies for mispelling liminereid's name....PS apologies for mispelling liminereid's name... can that be corrected? If not this post will have to do. Thanks.Bennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-24177448906687561302009-12-29T18:07:41.859+00:002009-12-29T18:07:41.859+00:00I think the historical-materialist point to make ...I think the historical-materialist point to make is that yes, foxhunting is a symbolic practice, but the symbol in question is a population of sentient creatures with a genuine capacity for suffering. <br /><br />In a similar way, say, Berlusconi is a symbol of right-wing chauvinism, the conjunction of gangsterism and politics, and the corporate control of the media; and a souvenir model of Milan's cathedral is symbolic of the commodification of religion by the industrial-tourism complex... but notwithstanding this abstract symbolic value, when you throw the model at his face, it still kind of hurts him. <br /><br />One has to take into account, in a fairly utilitarian way, I think, the negative magnitude of the suffering against the positive symbolic effect.<br /><br /> I can't honestly see that the symbolic value of fox-hunting can in any way justify the suffering caused by it, because the symbolic value of the practice is 100% reactionary horseshit. The Berlusconi incident, on the other hand...<br /><br />Furthermore, whilst the issue of foxhunting is raised for symbolic reasons, it accidentally brings in lots of wider issues about ecology, the relationship between the national centre and the periphery, the residual feudalism of our ostensibly capitalist economy, etc. <br /><br />E.P. Thompson on land-rights, in something like 'Whigs and Hunters', and Raymond Williams on 'The Country and the City' are important reference points here.<br /><br />I think limenreid's last comment was really getting somewhere by beginning to open out these issues. The worrying thing for me about the opposition to the hunting ban is that it showed how some working class people in the countryside are so economically dependent on the landed aristocracy that they will actively form a political bloc with them to defend their meaningless privileges. <br /><br />The important task, then, is for a left-wing political programme to provide alternative means of livelihood in order to de-couple the interests of the rural working class from those of the gentry. Typical Gramscian hegemonic analysis basically. <br /><br />All I am trying to argue is that maybe it is better to take the issue and expand on it, rather than just dismissing it because it is tokenistic at the (admittedly petty) level at which the Labour government initiated the debate. Otherwise you're just participating in the same fetishization/reification that they are.<br /><br />Incidentally I always found it quite telling that Ted Hughes loved fox hunting and wrote an essay defending it.Bennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-53140054826278806742009-12-29T17:13:24.888+00:002009-12-29T17:13:24.888+00:00Fox hunting was certainly discussed at my State sc...Fox hunting was certainly discussed at my State school in Sussex but there were plenty of people very well aware of how class and poverty and hunting were horribly tangled up. Plenty of people opposed the ban because they were working in stables and with the dogs and their livelihoods were under threat. Plenty of other farmers' kids I knew supported the ban because of the money they lost when the hunt went through their fields and damaged crops and sometimes killed livestock. Others, with a fair bit of justice, worried greatly about what the loss of fox hunting would do to an already fragile rural economy which made good money out of the hunt and tourists who came to see them ride. Personally I supported the ban because I thought hunting was barbaric but it didn't distract me and my friends from marching in Stop The War demos.<br />If you only listen to the toff members of the Countryside Alliance then no, you won't hear much about unemployment or poverty. But at my school, where farmers' kids and kids whose parents ran studs or worked as grooms and other jobs, poverty and unemployment was definitely tied up with their feelings towards the bill.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-59698068700187828022009-12-29T16:58:31.600+00:002009-12-29T16:58:31.600+00:00That's a charitable interpretation, Snowshifte...That's a charitable interpretation, Snowshifter. I believe Penny actually claimed not to care about fox hunting. But good on you for giving her the benefit of the doubt.<br /><br />Having met many hunt saboteurs, I know that, whilst many of them are not particularly fond of "posh" people, they are passionately against cruelty to animals and to children. Some of them are a bit more judgemental about adults, but they hardly have a monopoly on that. The "Daily Mail" and "The Sun" and other newspapers often demonstrate that a lot of adults are quite judgemental towards other adults.<br /><br />@ David, yes, governments do have limited time, but I am sure you agree the accusation that time was being wasted on hunting could equally be levelled against hunt supporters.<br /><br />I am not naive enough to think that Blair was particularly interested in foxes, since his government continued to support the cull of ruddy ducks. These ducks are not being culled for food or because they are a nuisance to humans, their offence is that they are accused of mating with white-headed ducks. This type of miscegenation will not do.<br /><br />But what am I meant to do? Am I meant to think the hunting ban is a bad idea just because Blair's government brought it in? I am sad that it has loopholes, but a lot of pioneering laws were like thatstarts out that way. If you look at the 1965 law abolishing the death penalty and the 1967 law legalising homosexuality, you will find both riddled with loopholes. (Ie the death penalty was originally just suspended for 5 years, and was retained for treason and a few other rare offenses. Homosexuality was legalised for men aged 21 or over provided they weren't in Scotland, Northern Ireland, the army or the presence of anyone else.)Vanilla Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07946634138308342764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-74602816918446122782009-12-29T15:36:46.252+00:002009-12-29T15:36:46.252+00:00Hmmm, my impression was that Penny isn't sugge...Hmmm, my impression was that Penny isn't suggesting only a small number of issues can be of concern to any one individual, nor that focusing on animal cruelty is wrong/silly. What irks is the hijacking of legitimate concerns for party politics.<br /><br />Penny seems to imply, and I think I would agree, that the hunting ban was never about animal cruelty, but rather was a means of deflecting attention away from difficulties surrounding the invasion of Iraq and providing a class-war stick to beat the Tories with that wasn't technically about class.<br /><br />(Apologises for para-phrasing, Penny)<br /><br />Now, whilst bringing the Tories to task and legislating to reduce cruelty towards animals are both worthwhile ends, surely we can do without the faux-outrage and bullshit?Snowshifternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-34188902990021219692009-12-29T15:21:58.668+00:002009-12-29T15:21:58.668+00:00PS Just for the record, I am against capital punis...PS Just for the record, I am against capital punishment full stop, even where the person is guilty and sane.Vanilla Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07946634138308342764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-20503853511907977512009-12-29T15:19:41.369+00:002009-12-29T15:19:41.369+00:00I'm happy for people to care about as (and cam...I'm happy for people to care about as (and campaign on) many issues as they're capable of getting their head round.<br /><br />That's a slightly different issue to what governments should do - given that there's a limit to what governments have the time and resources to do. <br /><br />But as the original post suggest, it's not just that the ban on foxhunting wasn't important, it's that the overrall political effect of Labour pursuing was actively detrimental to serious debate about inequality.<br /><br />It was detrimental it pushed the debate towards whether some groups of people ride horses, talk posh and wear tweed - which is largely irrelevant - and away from whether some people have destructively unreasonable levels of wealth and power.David Floydhttp://www.chartist.org.uk/noreply@blogger.com