tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post405603519441570717..comments2024-03-29T05:46:39.542+00:00Comments on Penny Red: A state-sponsored book-burning parade.Penny Redhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07677315565893516941noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-62527123440955329042010-03-27T14:13:41.977+00:002010-03-27T14:13:41.977+00:00Jonny: The internet of today is an electronic wild...Jonny: <i>The internet of today is an electronic wild west and, much as the idea saddens me, it's going to end up getting "civilised" in one way or another. I have a nasty suspicion we're currently living in the "good old days" of the web.</i><br /><br />Corporate control of the net will only happen if people are lazy and apathetic and do nothing about it. If we fight them we will win; for example there are about 7 million people who illegally download copyright material, and they and their families all risk being disconnected from the net without presumption of innocence or a fair trial. That number of people is far too big for politicians to ignore. <br /><br />The best start is to join the <a href="http://www.pirateparty.org.uk/" rel="nofollow">Pirate Party</a>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-51288581052919276142010-03-27T14:05:16.696+00:002010-03-27T14:05:16.696+00:00"the Digital Economy Bill is one of the most ...<i>"the Digital Economy Bill is one of the most significant assaults on human rights that Labour has managed to execute in its twelve-year trigger-happy showdown with British civil liberties."</i><br /><br />It is, and given Labour's record, that's saying a lot.<br /><br /><i>Because much as the Digital Economy Bill is Mandelson's terrible lovechild, collusion by frontbench Tories and Lib Dem Peers gives the lie to the idea that this is simply a Wicked Labour Scheme.</i><br /><br />Lord Mandelson and Lib Dem Lord Clement-Jones have colluded with the BPI to write this bill. These "noble" lords think that big business should write our laws. It's a shame the British people won't get a chance to vote them out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-34188426111744685032010-03-25T17:21:28.671+00:002010-03-25T17:21:28.671+00:00@ Edmund Ward
I hope PR doesn't mind me wande...@ Edmund Ward<br /><br />I hope PR doesn't mind me wandering off-topic but it's good to be able to have polite and reasoned discussion on this kind of thing.<br /><br />Just as you would object to classing all 'pirates' as all of the one type it's important to remember that the copyright lobby is made up of various elements who are often at loggerheads.<br /><br />As an example, the people I often struggle to make pay up are probably the same corporate interests that you object to on the other side of the debate.<br /><br />You raise a good point about distribution costs but it's worth considering production costs. The up front investment can be quite considerable let alone an artist feeding themself during the creative process. I think some people (not saying you do) fail to recognise that. <br /><br />Coming back to being pro musicians' rights as opposed to corporate rights, surely the person that makes something should have some say over its use by others?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-54487361484184724492010-03-23T12:05:07.627+00:002010-03-23T12:05:07.627+00:00I once had someone who was obsessed with trying to...I once had someone who was obsessed with trying to make out I was stupid. I admit that some of my replies to her posts were done in haste, but she took it to another level. In the end, she hated me so much that she started making up stuff and pretending I had said it.<br /><br />Be brave, Penny, it's not easy to block out trolls.Vanilla Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07946634138308342764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-62508294872751752152010-03-22T17:13:44.023+00:002010-03-22T17:13:44.023+00:00@inskauldrak I certainly do concede that thought n...@inskauldrak I certainly do concede that thought needs to be given to where we are going and where we are coming from on this issue. Artists have always struggled to get paid & I think any society is going to have people like you struggling to get some musicians paid - no?<br /><br />The Pirate movement has arisen as a reaction to the one-sidedness of mainstream political discourse on the issue as a result of pressure from the copyright lobby who insist on framing the issue in terms of criminality and spurious lost revenues (as if reduced profits was a reasonable excuse to open the door to censorship, disproportionate and collective punishment). If the Pirates seem extreme then it is a reaction to the opposing discourse that would criminalise over 10% of the population.<br /><br />The question is, how to reward creativity in a world where the marginal distribution costs of culture is essentially 0? It is a difficult question - The Pirate movement is a long way from all the answers but feel that it's approach is more clear-headed than most - who see the solution in intrusive yet ineffective protectionism for ostensibly obsolete industries (that have historically abused the legal protections we have granted them - "I view litigation as a key profit centre")<br /><br />So to borrow you're own point- I see the pirate movement as doing something in the right direction; by challenging the orthodoxy that copyright is essential for a creative society.<br /><br />Although it shouldn't have any bearing on the logic of my points I will state for the record that I pirate a reasonable amount but I have, since becoming a wage-earner spent a good deal of money donating to film projects(e.g. http://www.bornofhope.com/), support as many indie games as I can find (e.g. http://thelettervsixtim.es/), buy from artists (e.g. http://www.scarygoround.com/)who share their work online. I also pay a monthly subscription to the local cinema for unlimited films. So on a personal level as a consumer of culture, I resent any suggestions that all pirates are cheapskates and freeloaders or thieves(not that they have come from anyone here) - I contribute as much as I can afford to the 'culture'; I just get much more bang for my buck and can spend my bucks in a more targeted manner.<br />Ironically, after consuming the media, I buy discs and books - why? I buy them in physical form for the sole reason that I can *share them* more easily by putting them in my friends hands than I can by saying 'oh, check out x'<br />For me culture is all about sharing.Edmund Wardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10471283229920563028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-34155617731230641142010-03-22T16:24:03.266+00:002010-03-22T16:24:03.266+00:00@Edmund Ward I hear what you’re saying and I agree...@Edmund Ward I hear what you’re saying and I agree that legislation should be thought through. <br /><br />On the cost to artists front there’s a fair bit of competing evidence on that one. There are a substantial portion of pirates who never pay for any music content – I think research shows this increases the younger the demographic. <br /><br />It’s just difficult for people like me who spend their working life struggling to try and get musicians paid at all. The pressure on wages in all areas of recording is immense and real terms comparisons with the rates of pay of yesteryear make for grim reading. That’s not to say it’s all the fault of piracy or a reason to support specific legislation, just an idea of why it makes it an emotive issue for me.<br /><br />Another factor to consider is that the Bill means that there will be some legislation rather than none since the arts tend to be at the back of the legislative queue. <br /><br />As an example, take the (imho) much less contentious issue of Performers’ Right to Equitable Remuneration. This was agreed by treaty in about 1961. It took the UK until 1996 to introduce it and even then it was because of an EU directive on rental and lending.<br /><br />I don’t necessarily think that this counts as a compelling argument by any means, but it is a perspective worth considering and engaging with.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-18528261205516150242010-03-22T15:37:57.198+00:002010-03-22T15:37:57.198+00:00@inskauldrak I'll freely admit that I'm a ...@inskauldrak I'll freely admit that I'm a member of the "The militant anti-copyright mob" however you shouldn't let your disagreements with the way the debate has been framed prevent you from seeing and speaking out against the injustice of the digital economy bill.<br /><br />Blocking websites at the ISP level that host or link to copyrighted material. Kicking entire IP addresses off the net. Punishment before fair hearings. It's being rushed through before an election so neither party has to shoulder all the blame for it. These are the hallmarks of a bad law.<br /><br />This is without need to resort to talking about how filesharing doesn't *necessarily* cost artists anything and that disconnection from the internet will obviously reduce the total amount of money spent on digital content (pirates buy more content)<br /><br />If you're not going to protest the Bill because some other people who are protesting it in a way you don't like then you're completely buying into the logic of the distribution industries - who want to frame all opposition to heavy-handed copyright policing as 'a bunch of freeloaders'Edmund Wardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10471283229920563028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-50300884475837054572010-03-22T13:07:45.894+00:002010-03-22T13:07:45.894+00:00The points raised are of the sort that ought to ha...The points raised are of the sort that ought to have me rushing to join folk on the barricades.<br /><br />Why then am I not? It’s a shameful thing to say but ultimately I think it’s just bloody-minded bitterness at the rest of the world. More specifically, I have a profound distrust and dislike of some of the factions that are involved in the campaign. The militant anti-copyright mob who want to see a lot of people lose their rights.<br /><br />Those folk aside, what I don’t see are suggestions for what to replace it with or enough public recognition of the harm done to musicians.<br /><br />That’s not a criticism of your post in particular, but the way the debate’s been going more generally…Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-23517357667222982322010-03-22T11:57:07.074+00:002010-03-22T11:57:07.074+00:00So what specifically is the government trying to s...So what specifically is the government trying to stop people doing? I think I've missed this debate.David Floydhttp://www.chartist.org.uk/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-2572439703045339692010-03-22T09:06:30.688+00:002010-03-22T09:06:30.688+00:00Well, this is all par for the course as far as New...Well, this is all par for the course as far as New Labour are concerned. It wasn't long ago they wanted to monitor ALL internet traffic in real time... erm... to protect us from terrorist attacks apparently by placing all internet users under surveillance. I expect that the ISPs will legally challenge the Digital Economy Bill in the courts, as they did in Australia vis-a-vis similar legislation where they won.<br /><br />This bill if it becomes an act won't prevent file sharing or much else as intended. Bittorent clients can now encrypt the protocol they use, dynamically change ports and do other things to make file sharing difficult to spot as far as ISPs are concerned. File sharers can also use proxy servers or VPNs to overcome pretty much every kind of block and restriction to surf or download from the web anonymously and securely. Most of these services involve paying a small monthly fee, but here's one interested parties can check out that will give you 20 minutes access to their VPN between disconnections for FREE; pay a small fee and use this VPN unconditionally, otherwise simply reconnect three times an hour and use it for NOTHING. Bit torrent to your heart's content and visited any website you want, blocked by your ISP or not.<br /><br /><a href="http://itshidden.com/" rel="nofollow">It's Hidden VPN: Use the web anonymously</a><br /><br />Fuck Peter Mandelson! Fucking little Red Queen that he is. And fuck the New Labour party that gave us lie detectors in benefit agencies, workfare for the unemployed and more attempts to curb and control us than any other government in living memory. Fuck them if they think they can commercialise and police the internet!<br /><br />In seven weeks New Labour will be toast!Wallacenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-46488674851233033542010-03-21T22:02:46.280+00:002010-03-21T22:02:46.280+00:00Thanks for posting. This is the global civil right...Thanks for posting. This is the global civil rights issue of our generation. We stand on the edge of a new frontier. How we choose to settle it will define the future of our society. Progressives of all kinds should speak out now, lest that future be chained by reactionary and shortsighted lawmaking.Edmund Wardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10471283229920563028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-4388579026576084942010-03-21T19:34:02.909+00:002010-03-21T19:34:02.909+00:00I'm glad to see you weighing in on this. The ...I'm glad to see you weighing in on this. The damage that could be done by this bill if it isn't at the very least subjected to intense scrutiny and debate is difficult to overstate. <br /><br />It's absurdly short-sighted of the Government to try to rush this one through, even by the standards they've shown.sinister agentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-32377829017331854992010-03-21T04:09:53.396+00:002010-03-21T04:09:53.396+00:00I think that in many ways the taming and regulatio...I think that in many ways the taming and regulation of the internet is something of an inevitability - it's simply too powerful a force in practically every area of life to avoid reactionary policies attempting to limit that power. It doesn't help that, for the most part, the people whose power it threatens are exactly the ones who don't really understand it. The internet of today is an electronic wild west and, much as the idea saddens me, it's going to end up getting "civilised" in one way or another. I have a nasty suspicion we're currently living in the "good old days" of the web.<br /><br />That said, this bill is pretty much the worst way such regulation could come about. The legislation seems to simply want to stop the areas or activities that alarm the policy-makers, whereas if they insist on curtailing online freedoms (and they will), they're going to have to work with the internet rather than against it.<br /><br />Those of us who've grown up with our entire outlook and mindset shaped by the internet and its incredible nature have got to do everything and anything we can to stop this.Jonnyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03714318498560800903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-91722582952933121372010-03-20T21:24:17.000+00:002010-03-20T21:24:17.000+00:00Erm, yes, and what TimD said.
And +1 apologies to...Erm, yes, and what TimD said.<br /><br />And +1 apologies to Penny_red for causing a scene in your comments thread. If you're wondering where all these randoms came from, blame Twitter!Richardhttp://www.richardskingdom.net/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-62996428709986903892010-03-20T21:19:32.636+00:002010-03-20T21:19:32.636+00:00@Anonymous, who said, "I'd like to suppor...@Anonymous, who said, "I'd like to support the campaign against the Digital Economy Bill, but it seems to be driven by a utopian anti-copyright libertarianism with which I have no sympathy."<br /><br />This isn't about copyright maximalists versus Internet freeloaders. It's about corporate control versus human rights.<br /><br />Calling this the Digital Economy Bill is ironic. It neither addresses the issue of monopoly reproduction rights in an age of zero-cost copying, nor promotes creative business in the digital era, which is a shame because there's a desperate need to do both those things.<br /><br />The debate left the economic axis when the Government decided to threaten families, businesses and places of education with disconnection from the Internet as punishment for the copyright transgressions of a few users of their connections; when Conservative and Liberal Democrat peers proposed censorship as the solution to websites hosting unlicensed files alongside legal ones; and when Lord Mandelson tried to grant himself powers to change copyright law without Parliamentary debate.<br /><br />I would have thought these were the sort of bad ideas against which a socialist could see themselves campaigning.Richardhttp://www.richardskingdom.net/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-5054497399082663482010-03-20T20:28:27.726+00:002010-03-20T20:28:27.726+00:00@anonymous: manufacturers of illuminated manuscrip...@anonymous: manufacturers of illuminated manuscripts' may not have spearheaded a 'vicious backlash' against the Gutenberg Bible, but the Catholic church most certainly did - for the first time in history, information could be reproduced quickly, cheaply and outside the control of those who wanted to control the orthodoxy of ideas.<br /><br />Fast forward 700 years or so, and history is repeating itself. Big Content is having the crap scared out of it, because they no longer have a monopoly on the creation and distribution of content. Governments are having the crap scared out of them because they no long have monopoly control over the dissemination channels. And both (because they're virtually impossible to distinguish between) are lashing out in a desperate attempt to turn back the tide.<br /><br />50 years ago, one of the most powerful tools of opposition that you could possess behind the Iron Curtain was a duplicating machine - because that was how you could disseminate your ideas. The internet is our duplicating machine.<br /><br />Concerns about copyright are at best proxy issues - what's at stake here is the ability to create and disseminate information without the say-so of entrenched vested interests, whether they're commercial or governmental.<br /><br />@penny_red, apologies for hijacking your comment thread with that response to your anonymous socialist, but their position simply can't go unchallenged - this debate is too important for that.TimDhttp://www.adoptioncurve.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-68393193907319220372010-03-20T19:55:49.705+00:002010-03-20T19:55:49.705+00:00Getting us all online, getting us all an individua...Getting us all online, getting us all an individual web-page, not allowing anonymous surfing with open wifi. All are current policies that are ostensibly passing independent of each other. But this is truly joined-up 1984 control-freakery.<br /><br />Thanks for your great post.Russellhttp://nwsheffield.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-75295664877943527712010-03-20T19:12:34.369+00:002010-03-20T19:12:34.369+00:00Here is a speech Lawrence Lessig gave to the Itali...<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe2UsBXr-ls" rel="nofollow">Here is a speech</a> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Lessig" rel="nofollow">Lawrence Lessig</a> gave to the Italian Parliament. He may be American, but much of what he says also applies to UK.Anonymous001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-9677254753854252212010-03-20T13:32:39.149+00:002010-03-20T13:32:39.149+00:00For the record, I don't think the 'manufac...For the record, I don't think the 'manufacturers of illuminated manuscripts' spearheaded a 'vicious backlash' against the Gutenberg Bible, but it's a nice idea -- I like to imagine them stabbing Gutenberg with their little pointy quill pens, or maybe sprinkling gold leaf in his beer.<br /><br />Seriously, though, I think you need to come up with a better argument against the Bill than simply repeating the old mantra 'information wants to be free'. As a socialist, I support copyright (the individual ownership of creative power) in the same way as I support the individual ownership of labour power. There is a socialist case to be made for copyright and against piracy (particularly when you have large corporations like Google trampling on the rights of individual copyright-holders). I'd like to support the campaign against the Digital Economy Bill, but it seems to be driven by a utopian anti-copyright libertarianism with which I have no sympathy. And comparing the Bill to 'fascist book-burning parades' is, frankly, not the way to get people to take you seriously.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-62778800636027174642010-03-20T11:51:16.506+00:002010-03-20T11:51:16.506+00:00You're certainly not a stupid shouty girl for ...You're certainly not a stupid shouty girl for feeling strongly here. <br />Last summer, I tried to express an economists' objections in these posts:<br />http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2009/08/cabbies-record-companies.html<br />http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2009/08/what-property-right.html<br />http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2009/08/mandelson-p2p-public-reason.html<br />Not for the first time, your anger is rightful.chrishttp://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4343658614010405479.post-85119224522826506392010-03-20T03:08:08.637+00:002010-03-20T03:08:08.637+00:00The problem, in general, with Acts of Parliament t...The problem, in general, with Acts of Parliament that get rushed through before a general election is that they are usually poorly drafted and thus they hit too little of the target, too much of the target, or the wrong target entirely. The DEB is no exception. <br /><br />There is undoubtedly a problem with copyright in the digital era. Some people make a living by producing 'Intellectual Property' and we need a debate about whether that needs to carry on. If it does we do need to stop those people being ripped off. Some of those people will be rich, some will be poor, some will be corporate bodies. <br /><br />Copyright is an odd concept in many ways, for instance why should I be able to get fee if my words are used but not my equations. To see how this works in practice consider Sir Andrew Wiles. Sir Andrew in famous for proving Fermats Last Theorem. Simon Singh wrote a very accessible book about Sir Andrew's work, he did not have to pay Sir Andrew for the right to do so, but if someone wanted to use Simon's words in any substantial way they would have to pay Simon. This is when you think about it distinctly odd.<br /><br />But back to the bill. This bill goes too far in punishing those who infringe its provisions Importantly it allows punishment without trial. I would feel much happier with it if it involved the courts, with proper appeals processes in punishment. <br /><br />As it stands I have doubts as to whether these provisions can withstand a challenge in the Human Rights Court. The problem with that is the by the time that Court has pronounced much damage will have been done.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com